Top Fin salt

Has anyone used Top Fin salt? I picked up a bucket at Pet Smart the other day because it was on sale and I needed to do a water change. Bucket says it makes 150G. Well when I finally got the bucket all mixed up at a SG of 35 PPT, I had about 180 G of water mixed up.

I was a bit weary of my findings when I was trying to make up my water but when I checked my tank and my RO water with the same refractometer, they read correct, 35 PPT for the tank and 0 for the RO. With 150 G of water, I was reading about 42 PPT with the Top Fin salt. I finally gave up trying to figure out what was wrong and just started making more RO water. When I got home from work, I measured it again and it was finally down to 35 PPT.

Now if it will just warm up a little and quit raining, I can do a water change. I wound up buying a second bucket as I thought I may need it since I had added so much water to the mixing tank. I'll see what happens next time I go to mix up a batch if it still mixes up 180 G at 35 PPT.

Just to clarify, I have a 250G container that I mix my salt in. I have been using IO salt in the past. One day when I neded to mix up some salt, I started making water and added one bag of salt at a time and when I got to 35 PPT, I marked the container with how much water was in there, so I have marks every 50G.

That would be interesting to get a bucket of salt that you get more for your money. What are the CA ALK and Mg levels at with it?

I haven't checked them yet. I'll try and do that tonight. I finally got the salinity correct after making water for 4 days.

I wouldn't use it in my tank, you get what you pay for in this hobby, and the levels that that would very could crash a tank of my size. You may or may not be able to get away with it because of the size of your tank. That said you recently always seem to be battling some sort of problem with parameters so I would just stick to IO because that is what you have used and it is proven to be a great and stable salt mix.

Ray,

when was the last time you calibrated your refractometer with calibration fluid? I used to always calibrate with RODI water but come to find out that I was way off.

the reason why I ask is because it's a bit odd that you were able to get more out of the bucket, usually the markings are set to less than 35ppt, like my IO 50 gallon bags make far less than 50 gallons at 35ppt.

I have calibration fluid if you want to rule out your refractometer.

Or if you want to loan me your refractometer.

Like I said, the Top Fin was at 40 and my tank was measuring 35. The marks I have on my mixing tank are based off of a 50g bag of IO salt. So maybe I only have 150G actually in the tank instead of 180. Maybe this one actually mixes at 35 on a 150G mix while as you noted, the IO is less.

Corey, I don't think by changing salt is going to be that big of a deal as long as I take some precautionary test before hand. Hell, I've used just about every salt out there at one time or another and haven't had any issues with them. And I'm talking about using salt all the way back to the mid 1970's, long before you came around. I've also used NSW for years with no issues even though the "experts" say I'll crash my tank.

Sorry but I don't buy the "you get what you pay for in this hobby" mentality. Granted some things may work better than others, and that's true in everything you do in life, but there are things that can be done to help ensure sucess that dosen't necessarily cost extra money.

Never calibrate a refractometer at 0 or with RODI. You will never get the correct reading. Always use the calibration fluid that is made at 35ppt.

Well ok the thing about salt mixes is that you do in fact get what you pay for, salt mixes like instant ocean, red sea, D-D, Brightwell... they all are tested because they have a high name to uphold in this hobby, they constantly test every batch of salt mix that is produced to insure us the consumers are not going to get varying results. Top-fin is a salt that is really only ment for FOWLR tanks so the manufacturer is not testing every batch for every type of parameter and thus can keep the cost lower, I have read numerous articles about these off brand salts being very inconsistant in their parameters and have been known to have devastating effects on reef tanks. I dont know very much about NSW but If its purified and filtered I would think it should have pretty stable parameters. Look at some of the nicest tanks around and who is having the best results, look at what Paul uses, or Bogdan and Crystal. They have systems that are proven to grow coral and keep them as healthy as they ever could be.

Soooo what's a good salt mix out there to sure for reef .. I want to start mixing mine own since I always bought mine water already ready... For example what does bogdan uses since he has very good growth ...

MxReEfEr92 wrote:Well ok the thing about salt mixes is that you do in fact get what you pay for, salt mixes like instant ocean, red sea, D-D, Brightwell... they all are tested because they have a high name to uphold in this hobby, they constantly test every batch of salt mix that is produced to insure us the consumers are not going to get varying results. Top-fin is a salt that is really only ment for FOWLR tanks so the manufacturer is not testing every batch for every type of parameter and thus can keep the cost lower, I have read numerous articles about these off brand salts being very inconsistant in their parameters and have been known to have devastating effects on reef tanks. I dont know very much about NSW but If its purified and filtered I would think it should have pretty stable parameters. Look at some of the nicest tanks around and who is having the best results, look at what Paul uses, or Bogdan and Crystal. They have systems that are proven to grow coral and keep them as healthy as they ever could be.

I believe Bogan uses Instant Ocean salt mix, I use Red Sea Coral pro, As well as Nikecivic. Scott Felman uses Brightwell for all of their water at Unique Corals.

Bogdan uses Reefcrystals or Instant ocean. They have gotten it down at (I think) ranbow petstore, 40$ for a 200 gallon box(4 bags) I've used it as well. I would also like to point out though, Bogdan and Paul also very closely monitor their water and modify as needed. That is a big part of keeping a reef tank. IO is designed for FOWLR, yet people use it in their reef tanks and dose to make up for the lower CA and Alk. They use it for the trace minerals.
Also, top fin is at least a big enough name to be countrywide(in all the petsmarts) and petsmart wants repeat customers. If they have a horrible product, people wouldn't come back. Is it the best, probably not, but its probably not as bad as some think it to be.

I would have to dissage any person that has a reef tank is NOT going to shop at pet smart for chemicals for their aquarium. Top-Fin is meant for FOWLR because those kinds of tanks are not dependent on calc, alk, mag and other parameters. If you simply go and purchase cut rate supplies you are going to have more issues then it is worth to save money, I know this from first hand experience. I was not able to keep anything until I ponied up and bought quality products. I used to use the Oceanic salt that was $4 for 25gallons worth and as soon as I switched to reef crystals my parameters did well. Thus my corals and fish thrived. I used to buy those cheap chinese power heads off eBay and had nothing but problems with them and inconstant flow. Again I know very little about NSW so just keep this in mind. Look at every person who has TOTM on reef central and see what they are using. Why try and see if you can stretch your dollar just one step further then to get what is known to work. You just stress and hurt your corals which are living animals. Its not fair to them, im not saying I have perfect reef keeping husbandry because I certainly dont, but I try and mimic those who have the nicest tanks. I may not have as much experience as a lot of people but I have read threads throughout the deepest parts of the web for the last 3 years and have had many ups and downs with my tank. There is soo much more to chemistry in a reef tank and what different species of animals need then people are willing to learn.

What we use:



Why? Because it works and it's cheap.. We've tried Tropic marin pro, red sea, D&D, etc. We had good luck with them as well, but they were more expensive and the results in our tanks didn't warrant the higher cost. We've also tried off-brand salt from Petco. It was a few bucks less than the other buckets and looked the same. It was the first reef-related thing we bought when we were completely new and didn't know better. 3 months later, most of our corals were dead, and even our discosoma mushrooms melted.. We tested our parameters and they were way out of whack. Imagine that. People told me, and I didn't listen.. "You get what you pay for" doesn't always apply.. but in this case it did. Good luck with whatever salt you decide to use and be sure to check your levels... We check them weekly now, but used to check them daily.

MxReEfEr92 wrote:I would have to dissage any person that has a reef tank is NOT going to shop at pet smart for chemicals for their aquarium.

I've gone there and so has Ray...
Also, They do sell IO, its just more expensive than other places. They also sell other better things, their prices just aren't as good.

I'm not saying that better brands aren't better, I am simply saying that you can, and people do, use the cheaper salts.

bvysochin wrote:What we use:

Now your just showing off.....

I paid less per box than Cory paid for his cheap Oceanic salt. I would have bought more if I had more space to store it!

I use Tropic Marin salt.

I think one of the main things is that you need to be consistent. Pick something and stick with it. Constantly changing is not good for the system.

where do you get IO for <$32 a box?

MxReEfEr92 wrote:where do you get IO for <$32 a box?

http://www.socalireefs.com/forums/showthread.php?36026-Anyone-know-of-any-Cyber-Monday-sales-worth-a-****!

Petsolutions.com had a black friday special. I think it was $32 a box, with free shipping, plus additional % off. Then, I paid with my discover card, which offered me a 5% rebate, and an additional 2% rebate because it was a black friday special. No tax either. Beats driving to Rainbow to lug a pallet of salt back to the house.

Thus my corals and fish thrived.

When I started making my own water I went with D-D H2Ocean, because the place I was getting my water from (Vivid) used it. I was perfectly happy, but someone told me Brightwell is better, now I'm told by this same person Red Sea Coral...

calistyle wrote:

Thus my corals and fish thrived.

When I started making my own water I went with D-D H2Ocean, because the place I was getting my water from (Vivid) used it. I was perfectly happy, but someone told me Brightwell is better, now I'm told by this same person Red Sea Coral...

Not once did I say brightwell salt.

Even tho they are a very reputable brand in which I would have no issue using.

I liked the red sea coral pro stuff, and the IO, but the coral pro has more CA and Alk, which is nice if your only doing water changes. but if you dose, I don't see why not to use the IO

With how much I do water changes my salt costs for a year is one bucket of salt

Man you guys have gone off in left field here.

As for the salt, I read the bucket last night a little more closely. It states " no Phosphates or Nitrates. Mixes to 150 G at 1.022"

I checked the parems last night and they all came in good.
PH 8.3
Alk 9.5
Cal 400

I rechecked the storage container and I still beleive that it is 180G I mixed up. I understand keeping things consistant. And I try to do that. But I haven't made it out to rainbow to restock on IO. I have no issues using IO and have been using it since the 70's. The Top Fin was on sale by a considerable amount less than the IO so that is why I bought it. Unlike Corey, I change a bucket of salt a month on my tank usually. So that's 12 buckets a year which can get expensive when you have everything else to do with the system. And petsmart has some good deals if you have a card. Not all of us live at home and have a large disposable income.


There are a lot of things out there that work in an Aquarium. There are also a lot of over priced equipment out there that everyone swears by. I've been down that road. I've also found that I can usually build the same equipment for a whole lot less and it works just as good. Been there done that too when people said I couldn't. I've run thriving systems using what most would call subpar equipment. Husbendry has a lot more to do with it than the equipment.

When you've been in the hobby for a long time and seen the cycles a tank will go thru, you will soon learn that the animals we care for are a whole lot smarter than we give them credit for. Also they are a whole lot more resilliant to changes than we give them credit for. If you've ever been on a reef and seen some of the things they go thru, you'd know what I'm talking about.

As far as reading things on the internet and mimicking ones person sucess is not the way to run an aquarium. every system is different and will react differently to the same changes. been there done that as well. Again, husmebdry plays a big part in the sucess of a tank.

But as the comerical on TV says, "I read it on the internet, it must be true because they can't put it on the internet unless it's true" as she walks off with her "french Model boyfriend".

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:Husbendry has a lot more to do with it than the equipment.

Couldn't agree more...yes this coming from the guy who puts way too much into equipment, but the equipment generally makes my life easier not theirs.

Corey,
I’m not picking on you, or anyone else here for that matter, but think that this is a good opportunity for some learning. And I’d like you to be the teacher, only because you made the statement “Top-fin is a salt that is really only ment for FOWLR tanks”.
So I have two questions for you professor.

1. What makes a salt FOWLR as opposed to a reef salt? I’m looking for scientific data here, not hearsay.

2. And if there really is a difference in salts that one is for FOWLR while another is a reef salt, then why are our fish not worthy of a better salt like our corals are?

I know there was an article once posted on RC that did cover some of this and you may be able to gleam info from there. And anyone else with some usable info is welcome to help the professor out here.

And as an aside, IO is/was considered a basic salt, what YOU may call a FOWLR salt, yet a lot of professional aquarist use it with success.


Your class awaits your answers.

The big difference between fish only and reef salt is the addition of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium (the big 3). Fish only aquariums don't need to spend the extra $$ for those added supplements so they save a few bucks buying the fish only salt.
Instant ocean (IO) is considered to be a fish only salt where as Reef Crystals is for (of course) reef tanks. I personally use instant ocean over reef crystals because there are trace elements found in instant ocean that aren't present in reef crystals. the downside to doing this is that I have to supplement the big 3 to maintain the proper levels, which I do anyway via the peristaltic pumps.

For me the benifit of the trace elements are worth purchasing a fish only salt over a reef salt.

Another point I would like to point out is that these different categories of salts are mainly for hobbyist that strictly rely on frequent water changes for the proper level of the big 3, meaning they never or rarely (once or twice a week) add the big 3 or at least 2 part to their tank.

The point that many are trying to make here is that there's some truth to purchasing a reliable brand of salt (regardless of fish only or reef) based solely on the companies track record, the ones that go out of their way to maintain consistent blends of salt year after year as opposed to other brands with less stringent quality control is worth giving them your business... especially when we have so much riding on consistency in our tanks.

I think your a bit off there. The "big three" are not "extra" supliments in the reef only salt. It is in both salts. just the "reef" salt has a higher concertration than NSW level of them.

" instant ocean over reef crystals because there are trace elements found in instant ocean that aren't present in reef crystals"
I did not know that. Where did you get this info from? Would not the corals need the same trace element? Is it one that can be added by a hobbyist?

I understand the brand name thing and most times, yes you are right. But that's not what the question was.

Also how do you know when a new salt ( or any product) shows up if it's good or not if no one ever tries it because of a "you get what you pay for" attatiude?

As for the Top Fin, I did find a thread on RC discussing it with several different experiences and no true conclusions on it. It's about equal good/bad. Of course no matter how good something is, there is always going to be one or two that just don't like it and will tell the world of their one bad experience. At this time, the numbers are correct and so I'm using it. But back to the main question at hand.

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:I think your a bit off there. The "big three" are not "extra" supliments in the reef only salt. It is in both salts. just the "reef" salt has a higher concertration than NSW level of them.

Ray, I think though you are missing what Jimmy is saying, fish do not need the big 3 at NSW levels unlike corals. So companies save money by adding less and hence create FO salt. More typically though a FO salt will use lower grade chemicals to create their matrix for life and therefore may have impurities. They may also change their ingredients frequently causing poor batch to batch reproducibility. None of that will really affect the fish as long as the SW is at 35ppt and the temp is around 78. Instant Ocean is pretty awesome because they have been producing the salt in the same way with pretty good ingredients for a long time. One thing to note, I have seen salts made the other way - TM pro is low on alk and ca because that brand is made for people who use a Ca reactor and so they don't want water changes to add too much Ca or bump the alk too high.

I think the bigger picture is quality and consistency. I know that TM uses all pharm grade chemicals to make the salt and I know from experience that the batch to batch is dead on. That is why I stick with the salt, I have gotten consistently good results and I don't change what isn't broken. I do not get paid to use the salt, in fact, it is considerably more expensive than other brands. But it mixes clear every time and I never get any residues on my buckets or mixing station like I did with IO, RC, and some of the other salts that I have used in the past. Back in the 90s I used to skim all my salt before I put it in my tanks and when I was buying the Tat's brand salt back in '04 when I moved to TO from the eastern sea board I literally had to clean the buckets after each new mix. Needless to say, I used that salt for like one water change.

New salts come on the market and use "marketing" to get bought. Vivid was into Brightwell last time I was there because they carry the supplement line and probably got a bit of a kick back from Brightwell to switch their salts. That is how the game usually works, the big retailers get pushed to sell stuff on incentive. I know that Seachem was making a big push when their new salt came out...offering big incentives to retailers to use and promote the new salt.

So.. You can be the guinea pig Ray. You run this Top Fin salt for a couple years and tell us how it works. Make it a nice chronicle on the MASVC forum. Would be interesting (note - the internet does not emote very well, but there is no sarcasm here).

Thanks for the reply paul. I've got a second bucket of Top Fin so we'll see what happens.

Funny that you mention TM as I had a completely different experience with it when I tried it back in the late 90's. I had been using IO but wanted to change. I bought some TM and when I started using it, I had a massive alage outbreak of a alage I had never seen in my tank before. As soon as I went back to IO, the alage went away. I know that IO has been around forever it sems as that was the only salt available back in the 70's. I guess that kind of shows that every tank is different and can react differently to the same inputs. I've even seen it in my two tanks when I was using NSW and dosing Seachem products. You would think they would act the same but they didn't.

As for your comment on "lower grade chemicals" are you saying that they are not as pure as some others? Isn't chloride chloride? Calicum calicum? Just asking as I know this is right up your alley and you can shed some light on it for us. I understand that some use "labratory grade" chemicls which I can only assume that that means they are 100% pure and only of the actual chemical where as the non "labratory grade" is maybe 95% pure with a few other chemicals that they couldn't or didn't remove. Am I correct in my thinking?

Also you bring up a interesting point. If they are making a "lower grade" salt for Fish only, does not the fish deserve the same quality of water as our corals? I mean they all live in the same water in the ocean. Has there been enough research on the affects of the FO salt to show that there is no ill effect? Could this lower grade salt possibly be a contributing factor to the HLLE that people have seen in their tanks?

I'm like you in that I skim my freshly made salt as well. I add it into my overflow so that it goes directly into my skimmer before reaching the sump. I'm not sure that it really pulls anything out but at least it's a little peace of mind as well as oxygenating the water before it hits the main tank.

Here's some info from the Topfin bucket.

Made in the USA
Dist by Picific Coast Dist in Phoenix Az
"Contains Major, Minor and Trace elements"
"Made to support Fish and invertabrates"
"Added calicum for coral growth and to promote coraline alage growth"

So far everything seems to be doing fine in the tank and my prams are normal. I haven't dosed any Alk or Calk since I did a 160g water change on Friday. It mixed up clean and easy. I'll see if anything grows in my holding container with the last bit of water that's left in it.

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:

As for your comment on "lower grade chemicals" are you saying that they are not as pure as some others? Isn't chloride chloride? Calicum calicum? Just asking as I know this is right up your alley and you can shed some light on it for us. I understand that some use "labratory grade" chemicls which I can only assume that that means they are 100% pure and only of the actual chemical where as the non "labratory grade" is maybe 95% pure with a few other chemicals that they couldn't or didn't remove. Am I correct in my thinking?

Yes the grade of the chemical is dependent on the purity. All chemicals have to be purified as even if they are synthesized they contain impurities. The higher the grade the higher the purity and the less "junk" in them. Lab grade of pharm grade are often of higher grade stock than the bulk grade chemicals.

Also you bring up a interesting point. If they are making a "lower grade" salt for Fish only, does not the fish deserve the same quality of water as our corals? I mean they all live in the same water in the ocean. Has there been enough research on the affects of the FO salt to show that there is no ill effect? Could this lower grade salt possibly be a contributing factor to the HLLE that people have seen in their tanks?

No, HLLE is linked very strongly to heavy carbon useage. There are a few articles on this, google will probably turn them up if you search for it. Certain fish probably need less impurities in their water, but for the most part fish are not nearly as sensitive to the chemical make up of the water. It has to do with their biology and the means by which they osmoregulate. Inverts are not as complicated in this endeavor and are therefore much more sensitive to the makeup of the water they live in.




[/quote]

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:Here's some info from the Topfin bucket.

Made in the USA
Dist by Picific Coast Dist in Phoenix Az
"Contains Major, Minor and Trace elements"
"Made to support Fish and invertabrates"
"Added calicum for coral growth and to promote coraline alage growth"

So far everything seems to be doing fine in the tank and my prams are normal. I haven't dosed any Alk or Calk since I did a 160g water change on Friday. It mixed up clean and easy. I'll see if anything grows in my holding container with the last bit of water that's left in it.

There is a good chance that this salt might be IO. Many companies repackage other manufacturers products after buying them in bulk (see trader joe's) and so there is a very very good chance that this Top Fin is just rebranded salt from another supplier.

dfladermaus wrote:

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:Here's some info from the Topfin bucket.

Made in the USA
Dist by Picific Coast Dist in Phoenix Az
"Contains Major, Minor and Trace elements"
"Made to support Fish and invertabrates"
"Added calicum for coral growth and to promote coraline alage growth"

So far everything seems to be doing fine in the tank and my prams are normal. I haven't dosed any Alk or Calk since I did a 160g water change on Friday. It mixed up clean and easy. I'll see if anything grows in my holding container with the last bit of water that's left in it.

There is a good chance that this salt might be IO. Many companies repackage other manufacturers products after buying them in bulk (see trader joe's) and so there is a very very good chance that this Top Fin is just rebranded salt from another supplier.

That would be great if we could find a cheaper version of IO(I know IO isn't that expensive, but saving money anywhere in the hobby helps)

[quote="dfladermaus
There is a good chance that this salt might be IO. Many companies repackage other manufacturers products after buying them in bulk (see trader joe's) and so there is a very very good chance that this Top Fin is just rebranded salt from another supplier. [/quote]

There were some people on RC who were stating the same thing. Wonder how we could really find out? I've been gone all week but I'll check the tank when I get home today and see if everything is OK.

Well, if Top Fin is anything like Trader Joe's its quite near impossible to find out. Many of these secondary suppliers create riders in the agreement that precludes the devulging of who makes the product. Though other secondary manufacturers have no problem with it. Maybe contact Top Fin and find out.

No big changes in the tank. Only problem I'm having now is that my trigger and Sohoal like to dig under the rocks to make them a home. When they do that, I get a big sand storm and my Alk and calc go up. I've been gone all week and so no one has been around to add Alk or calc, but they are now at 12 and 460 after the fish got done stiring up the sand. may be time to just throw in the towel and go FOWLR and get a smaller tank for corals.

That would be an awesome FOWLR tank, get a bunch of wrasses, butterflys, and angels

IF I go FOWLR, then a bunch of the rock is coming out and a Blue Spot Ray is going in.

Ray is going to have a ray?

Well nothing bad has happened since doing a water change with the salt. There was some left in my mixing container as I said whioch sits outside and gets some sun light in it since it's opaque. usually when I mix my IO in it, I get some alage growing in there on the bottom after the left over water sits in there for a bit. But this time, I got nothing from teh Topfin salt growing, which should be a good sign.

Crusty Old Shellback wrote:Well nothing bad has happened since doing a water change with the salt. There was some left in my mixing container as I said whioch sits outside and gets some sun light in it since it's opaque. usually when I mix my IO in it, I get some alage growing in there on the bottom after the left over water sits in there for a bit. But this time, I got nothing from teh Topfin salt growing, which should be a good sign.

Are you going FOWLR?

Not yet. But I'm seriously comtenplating it. Why? You want my corals?

OK, I mixed up my second bucket of this salt. It made about 160G mixed at 35 PPT. So far I have seen nothing devistating in the tank. No alage blooms. The fish seem to be doing fine. My corals are doing about the same. Not good, but not bad. But I was having some issues with them before I changed salt.

I did notice that the streamers on my Blonde Naso are longer. Can't say it was the salt but at least it didn't stun their growth. His streamers are pushing 5" long now. They look awsome.

I was at PetSmart the otehr day getting some other stuff and checked the prices. Top Fin is 10 bucks a bucket less than IO.